I just posted a comment on a thread discussing The Very Persistent Illusion: Absurd and Amusing Rationalizations About Free Will over at the evangelical outpost.
I must confess that I'm endlessly fascinated by the manner in which "God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;" as explained in 1 Corinthians 1:27
Below is my comment for your consideration:
Coram Deo writes:
I'm unclear about the correlation being drawn here between intellect and "believing dumb things".
There's probably some fine data out there but I've not seen the statistics. Furthermore I wonder how one goes about quantifying or defining "dumb things".
Perhaps at the root of the issue is the two conflicting worldviews at play in any given meeting between the Christian Biblical worldview and the Secular-Humanist worldview. The worldview one holds colors absolutely every perception and establishes every presupposition through which data from our environment is processed. While our noetic equipment is the same, our spiritual conditions couldn't be more different.
In fact the two aforementioned worldviews are diametrically opposed in every way. These worlds collide because the Christian views the world and processes his experiences with the mind of Christ, in the light of scripture, and with the discernment of the Holy Spirit who resides inside of him. On the other hand the non-Christian views the world through his darkened, utterly depraved and desperately sinful heart.
The "highly intelligent" non-Christian - by the world's standards - is in fact suppressing the knowledge of God in unrighteousness and is unable to develop a sustainable worldview of his own apart from "borrowing" from the Christian worldview. Since in his world there are no moral absolutes the unbeliever has no basis for good or evil nor can he even explain simple causation or why he should expect the world tomorrow to behave like it did today. Even worse the secular-humanist / atheistic philosophy is completely unable to explain universal laws such as the laws of logic. Clearly the laws of logic are non-conventional and immaterial, so the unbeliever finds himself on the horns of logic and begging the question when asked to explain how his world accounts for such things.
The Bible throws down the gauntlet and asks in 1 Corinthians 1:20 "Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" The simple answer of course is there is none to be found.
This bold challenge still stands unanswered and unanswerable today since it is impossible to successfully dispute the manifold wisdom of God.
In every social encounter the Christian is either witnessing to the lost or fellowshipping with a believer and it's important to quickly determine which situation you're in and tailor your message accordingly.
The Christian ought never to abandon his presupposition of the absolute unassailable truth of the Bible in order to gain "common ground" or "relevance" with his audience. The believer must present the whole counsel of God and allow the Holy Spirit to (prayerfully) move upon the heart of the unredeemed and open his eyes to the truth of the ages which is Christ crucified.
posted on 01.06.2007 9:35 PM
About logic:
ReplyDeleteWhy not be a Platonist in the classical sense? If so, one posits a realm of entities - the Platonic Forms - that, though not personal, yet ground such truths and those of logic and mathematics. In Platonic 'heaven' - that nonspatial, nontempoal realm populated by such abstract entities as number, line, plane, Justice, Goodness, Truth, Being (Plato's examples) - one finds the nonconventional ground of all unchangeable truth.
You seem to assume that the only two choices are theism (Christian theism, I assume) and atheism. This simply isn't true.
About the work of the Holy Spirit:
Why assume that the Spirit is at work only in those who already believe. The early Church Fathers rejected this. Augustine rejected this. For him, Faith was itself evidence of the work of the Spirit - without that work, we could not even so much as come to a genuine Faith in Christ. Moreover, the Christian theist must reject the attempt to divide God from truth. For her, God is truth. Thus any who discover some truth must derive it from God. They might not realize that this is so, but it is. But of course many atheists have grasped many truths - many atheists are quite superb scientists.
I could say much more, but I believe that what I've said does convey the thrust of my objections. You seem to ignore many live philosophical/religious possibilies in your post.
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ReplyDeleteWhy not be a Platonist in the classical sense? If so, one posits a realm of entities - the Platonic Forms - that, though not personal, yet ground such truths and those of logic and mathematics.
ReplyDeleteBecause without the God of the Bible there is no ground upon which "truth" may stand. To be a Platonist is to reject the God of the Bible since He is personal (among many other things). To reject the God of the Bible is to find oneself in the untenable situation of rejecting truth in order to find truth.
John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
You seem to assume that the only two choices are theism (Christian theism, I assume) and atheism. This simply isn't true.
I would simply counter that it is true and we would suddenly find ourselves at a zero sum impasse. Perhaps I follow up by asking if you wish to judge my hypothesis by tests of logical coherence and empirical observation.
If so I would need to clarify by asking you whether every claim someone makes must be treated as a hypothesis which must be tested by such evidence before accepting it (i.e. there must be nothing that begs the question or engages in circular reasoning). Then I would wait for your gracious response.
About the work of the Holy Spirit
I stand by my statement that the Holy Spirit is at work only in those who believe (Christian theist) because this is a clear and central teaching of the Bible. There is a broader providential work of the Sprit that is at work in all creation and this is the reason a depraved sinner can come to salvation in Christ and explains why non-Christians can come to know some truths about the world in which they live. God is continually revealing himself through the created order so that men are without excuse for knowing Him. Therefore a proof for the existence of the Christian God is the impossibility of the contrary.
Without the Christian world view even something as insignificant as our opposing viewpoints here wouldn't make sense. The Bible tells us, "the fool has said in his heart: there is no God." Don't misunderstand that. When the Bible uses the word fool it is not engaging in name calling. It's trying to describe somebody who is dense in the sense that they will not use their reason as God has given him (someone who is rebellious and hard hearted). It's the fool who says in his heart there is no God. Paul tells us in I Corinthians the first chapter, that God has made foolish the wisdom of this world. He asks rhetorically, "Where are the wise? Where is the debater of this age? Hasn't God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"
In a sense I think what Paul is telling us, if I can amplify or read between the lines, is that the whole history of Philosophy is an argument for the existence of God. The whole history of Philosophy is an argument for the existence of God because of the impossibility of the contrary.
So if someone wants to say something that is contrary to what the Bible says about God, let him stand up and answer these questions. Let him show that in his heart he may say there is no God, but he can't live that way. He can't reason that way.
In Romans the first chapter Paul says God is making himself known continually and persuasively to all men, so that men do not have an excuse for their rejection of the existence of the Christian God. That isn't to say that all men confess this God. Not all will own up to Him as their heavenly Father. Not all will submit to Him. Some continue to rebel. Some continue to devise their fools' errands and rationalizations of why they don't have to believe in Him.
That's what the Bible teaches. I didn't just make this up. I didn't decide to say, "If you don't agree you're just being rebellious." That is what the Bible says.
What I want you to do is to consider whether there isn't something to that: Why is it that some people continue to use laws of logic, morality, science, and yet they have a world view that just clashes with that; and yet they just won't do anything to resolve that contradiction?
I stand by my statement that the Holy Spirit is at work only in those who believe (Christian theist) because this is a clear and central teaching of the Bible. There is a broader providential work of the Sprit that is at work in all creation and this is the reason a depraved sinner can come to salvation in Christ and explains why non-Christians can come to know some truths about the world in which they live.
ReplyDeleteThat seems like a contradiction. First you say that the Spirit is at work only in those who believe; and then you say that the Spirit is at work in (some) non-believers.
Because without the God of the Bible there is no ground upon which "truth" may stand. To be a Platonist is to reject the God of the Bible since He is personal (among many other things). To reject the God of the Bible is to find oneself in the untenable situation of rejecting truth in order to find truth.
I had assumed that we were to observe some basic argumentative ground-rules here. In particular I had assumed that we were not to simply reject, without argument or explanation, a claim another has made. You say that it's a rejection of truth to find truth. But I don't agree that it's a rejection of truth, and the mere fact that you assert otherwise does nothing to change my views.
You seem to assume as well that I agree that the Bible is wholly true. I do not. (See my http://philosophicalmidwifery.blogspot.com/search/label/Inerrancy.) I would be happy to entertain arguments about Biblical inerrancy, but don't expect me to be much impressed by the mere assertion that its inerrant.
That seems like a contradiction. First you say that the Spirit is at work only in those who believe; and then you say that the Spirit is at work in (some) non-believers.
ReplyDeleteMy apologies for the apparent contradiction. I tend toward assuming too much common knowledge when discussing classic Christian doctrine with others.
According to scripture the Holy Spirit is only in (as in abiding within) born-again Christians. He does not abide within the unredeemed since they are polluted temples that have not been cleansed by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit gained entrance into redeemed (born-again) men after the resurrection of Christ on the day of Pentecost.
The Spirit's providential work is at all times, in all places for all men. This work is not redemptive (redeeming) but does draw men unto repentance. Some will repent (a change of heart) and some will not.
I had assumed that we were to observe some basic argumentative ground-rules here. In particular I had assumed that we were not to simply reject, without argument or explanation, a claim another has made.
Foul on the play, coach! Do you remember this?
You seem to assume that the only two choices are theism (Christian theism, I assume) and atheism. This simply isn't true.
Tsk, tsk! Now isn't that a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black?
I briefly reviewed your blog after you left your initial comment here; furthermore I went back and re-read your argumentation at Joe Carter's place and I am under no delusions about my ability to impress you. But then again, that's not my goal.
You seem to assume as well that I agree that the Bible is wholly true. I do not.
While I'm admittedly guilty of assuming a great many things, this is not usually one of them. I've found that very few people, even those who badge themselves as "Christian" believe the Word of God.
I don't know why you walk the path you're on Franklin Mason, but I can tell you that at present it doesn't seem to be leading to the Christian God of the Holy Bible, assuming that's your aim. He isn't a spiritual buffet where we can pick and choose what we like and leave the rest, nor is He a doddering old fool gazing approvingly upon the earth while wearing a senile grin.
He's the Almighty, the Righteous Judge, and the Creator of all. Additionally He's also our beloved kinsman redeemer, if we might but humble ourselves before Him.
It's unlikely that I can tell you anything you've not heard before or offer up an argument clever enough to convince you of anything whatsoever, but with your indulgence may I share from my heart for a moment?
What I can tell you is that Jesus Christ radically changed my life when I came to know Him as my Lord and Savior.
I was an angry, self-righteous and prideful man inside, but the "real me" was hidden by a well heeled, slick external veneer. I was a social chameleon, adaptable, changeable, and nimble. Drop me in a crowd or in a group and watch me go to work.
I was well liked by my peers, a model of ethical behavior and integrity, loving toward my wife, socially conscientious and generous with my resources (both time and money).
Respectable. Commendable. Reliable. Responsible. Kind. Considerate. Thoughtful. Moral.
LOST!
That's the bizarre part for me. I KNEW I was lost and I couldn't shake free from that knowledge. I wasn't raised in church so what little I knew about "God" and the "Bible" was passed to me from my former Jehovah's Witness mother who hadn't been to their cultic "Kingdom Hall" since she was about 16 years old. My dad was a spiritual bump on a log and I never once heard him speak of anything beyond the realm of the physical world, and usually nothing beyond the scope of a sporting event or some chore that needed completion.
I used to try "saying my prayers" at night or reading about comparative religions. I tried to read the Bible but it seemed like nonsensical gibberish and I became more and more angry. I was convinced if there was a god that it was certainly no better than I, no more moral, no more caring and likely no more intelligent. It just had a higher perspective; not entirely dissimilar to the guy's view at the bottom of the skyscraper compared to the guy's at the top. I may have been a Deist, I’m not even sure. Heck, I even considered the possibility that humans were some sort of galactic guinea pig planted here by an advanced alien race, or that perhaps the god was just a sadist really and there was no meaning for anything. This line of thinking usually served to only make me angry all over again.
I used to visit Christian websites just to goad the denizens and stir them up. I thought it was hilarious! Stupid, self-righteous, buggering, Bible-thumping bigots. I hated them. I hated their stupid smiles. I hated their stupid churches. I hated their sexual repression and holier than thou smug attitudes. I hated it all.
I can actually remember visiting various churches and standing there in the pew as the pastor made his altar call. As he asked if any listeners needed Jesus to be the center of their life my heart would pound so loud I thought everyone could hear it. It would rise up into my throat until I thought I'd choke. I felt like I was trapped in some bizarre Edgar Allen Poe presentation. I'd stand there white-knuckled holding on the pew in front of me so that my legs wouldn't buckle. I’d keep telling myself: “It’ll be over in just a minute, just a little longer and it will be over.”
I felt like everyone was looking at me, like something was wrong with me. Like they knew I had done something wrong. Those ugly wrinkled old blue-haired ladies with their big glasses and beatific smiles were leering at me. I wanted to punch them in the face and run away screaming.
And that's what was inside of me. A professional, educated, respectable fully-functional, non-delusional, otherwise well adjusted man would be driven to what seemed to be near madness by seemingly innocuous "God stuff".
Now you might think I needed some type of medication - and admittedly this presentation would certainly give many a mental health professional reason to pause - but I'm not ashamed to tell you the truth.
I was empty inside. I had all the material things a man could desire. I had great relationships, a successful and promising career, a wonderful wife, and beautiful healthy children. But there was always something nagging at me, eating away at me, grieving me.
Somehow I knew it was God but I didn't know how to get to know Him; how to respond! No one ever told me about Him. No one came to where I was and explained anything to me. No one in my social circle knew anything about Him either so I was trapped. I was too proud to go talk to some snake-oil selling preacher man and figured them all for hucksters anyway so there I was, without God and without hope.
Years ticked by. I just shoved all the weird feelings aside and did my best to ignore them, but they never went away. Finally a guy I worked with "got saved" - or so he said - and started telling me about his church, and about his God.
I listened because I had known the guy for years and saw the amazing changes in his life. I'm talking like 180 degree stuff that I couldn't believe. This was a two case a weekend guy who quit cold turkey. He said he didn't think it was what God wanted for him and it damaged his relationship with his wife. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. SOMETHING happened to my friend, he was a different man!
Long story short this guy invited me to his church and I ended up becoming a child of God, a born-again Christian.
I know I've not given you any hard data here, or any convincing arguments, but every word I've written is the simple truth about my simple life. I'm one guy, there are a million other stories out there, but at the bottom of it all I believe that we're all here for some reason, and that reason is to come into right relationship with our Heavenly Father through the shed blood of His only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, the Lord. Once we become aware of that we need to decide what we’re going to do with the information, how we’re going to act on it.
I've never met anyone who can explain everything about the Bible, or how God does what He does. At some point we just have to decide if we're going to bow our knee to the God of the Bible in this life or not.
I’m aware that you don’t trust in the veracity of the Holy Writ as I do, but the Bible says in Romans 14:11 and Philippians 2:11 that "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord forever". That will happen in one of two places; either on this side of eternity while we're able to receive his free pardon from our sin, or after death when we stand before Him as the Righteous Judge of our works on the earth. Sadly the Bible is explicit that no man can earn a heavenly reward based on earthly works since God's standard is absolute perfection and absolute holiness.
Only one man lived that absolutely sinless and holy life, that man was Jesus Christ who through his perfect life, sinless death, and victorious resurrection has paid the sin debt once and for all for those who believe on Him.
Again, I've reviewed your blog and your intellectual credentials and I’m fully aware that you can easily shred this post with your excellent training and your impressive mind. You can say my Christian experience was based on emotionalism or categorize it as a fulfilled need based on psychological distress, or bring to bear any number of other philosophical devices of which I've likely never even heard.
But nothing will change the simple truth I've shared here. I'm a changed man and not by my own power or might or any merit of my own. It was by falling down before the Lord God Almighty and asking him to save me. To help me know Him better. To forgive me of my sins and come into my heart as my Savior. To show me His grace.
I can't make it make sense for you, but I guess that isn't my job. It's between you and God, Franklin Mason. One thing I know is that He loves you more than you can imagine and it's not a needy or corrupted love as you've imagined on your blog. It's the love a Father has for His son, a love that would cause Him to lay down all the glory of heaven, leave His throne and take on the form of a humble servant and lay down His life to make a way for people like you and me to be reconciled with God's requirements for holy justice and wrath against the sin that entered into the world with the fall of man.
There are endless arguments, reasoning, philosophies and vain imagining about "the truth".
In the book of John chapter 18 verse 38 the Roman governor Pontius Pilate asked Jesus Christ "what is truth?"
That question has rung through the ages, hasn't it?
Whatever our answer to that question the truth doesn't change based upon whether or not we believe it, and I for one am fully persuaded that there is one truth upon which all of eternity hinges; Christ crucified.
Thanks for visiting my blog.
Just a short reply.
ReplyDeleteI most certainly would not attempt to explain away your religious experiences by some sort of psychological appeal. I'm no Freud. Rather I tend to take such things on face value, and accord them great respect.
I'm very much attacted to the view that the foundation of religious belief is not rational (if we mean by that proof) but is rather experiential. I can only say that the few experiences I've had don't seem to lead me in the direction you've taken. Rather, over time, I've become more liberal and universalist in my views.
My emphasis upon argument is, at bottom, not an attempt to underminer religious belief. It is rather (i) an attempt for myself to get about the issues involved, and (ii) an attempt to combat the by-my-lights false belief that religious belief (which I believe is often genuine and proper) has a rational foundation.
Thanks for your reply and brief explanation of your modus operandi.
ReplyDeleteI wholeheartedly agree with your view that religious belief lacks a rational foundation - with the exception of Christian theism.
I believe Christian theism to be the sole rational system of belief in existence whereby man can logically make sense of the world in which he lives.
Certainly there are undeniable experiential components to Christian theism (many examples are in my post above) but I also believe it can be - and indeed has been! - demonstrated with proof to be the only sustainable, logical, non-self-refuting philosophical system that exists.
I'd like to explore this further in a future post perhaps.
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